Tom Renney 0:00

Greetings, everyone. This is Tom Rennie, and I'm hosting Tom Talks, which should probably in most cases uh be Tom Listens because of the quality of the guests, and today is no different. I want to introduce Ron McLean and uh certainly well known to everybody I would suggest worldwide, certainly in the North American continent beyond. And Ron, it's a tough introduction because I don't think there's anything you don't know about anybody anywhere. I don't think there's anything that you haven't done or achieved that has a big impact on a lot of people, myself being one of many. But um with that being said, Ron, I can't thank you enough for spending some time with me and and talking shop a little bit and maybe some insight that might help us all kind of continue to push on and uh, as they say, be the best version of ourselves. So thank you very much for joining me.

Ron MacLean 0:43

Well, right back at you, Tom. As you know, it kind of connects to so many people in the game we have that are mutual friends, uh beginning with the Gare family, of course, Glenda, your wife, and Danny Gare. Yeah. Huge inspiration to me and his father, uh Ernie, who created the first student athlete scholarship program in the history of our country, Canada. So there's that, there's Glenn Seder, there's Pat Quinn, uh, I could go on, Cliff Fletcher. Um yeah, which when I see you do uh talks, uh the passion, the connections uh feel so good. So thank you.

Tom Renney 1:13

Well, thanks for that. I appreciate that. And thinking along those lines, Ron, in watching you do your thing, how comfortable and the level of ease you have in doing that. And I'm curious to know, is this by nature or is it something that you had to kind of be cognizantly aware of and work on? How did this become the Ron McLean that we all know and love? Well, how how did this happen?

Ron MacLean 1:37

I think, Tom, you you talk a lot about your parents when you speak about your career in leadership. For me in broadcasting, I have to go to mom and dad. Uh, you know, it's funny, Tom, when I auditioned for the job to be a hockey host, it was 1984 in Calgary, and John Shannon, you know, we did an audition with several tests, one of which was there was a two-minute block where they would ask you a question and you would have to answer it without knowing what the question is ahead of time, and you were to go go exactly two minutes. And I was thinking, oh God, I wonder what the question will be. And the question was, tell us about yourself. And it was all good green. Do I do humble pie? Do I try to assert, you know, some air of confidence? I didn't really know what to do. And I ended up talking about my mom and dad. Thank God that kind of came into my head to just explain how I'm a product of mom for a minute and dad for a minute, and it got me to two minutes. And and if I think I have any lucky break in my life, is I would say the islanders in Nova Scotia are great storytellers. I'm not saying I'm one. When I go down and sit at any function in Cape Breton, uh, I realize it's just kind of in the DNA to weave a story, usually with humor, which can get me in trouble. But yeah, I I would say that was the break I caught. And I had a great teacher, uh, just a really great teacher in my young broadcast career named Wayne Barry. His real name was Wayne Heinrich, but in radio you usually pick something easier. So he chose Wayne Berry as his radio pseudonym. And he taught me a lot about one-to-one communication, which is very important. Our whole industry is about companionship and it's about trying to make a connection. The complication is, I'm rambling already, but the complication of being one-to-one communicator is you have to pick a listener that's a little bit like you in terms of their sensitivities, their intelligences, their humor. But that's dangerous because that's maybe 5% of your viewership. And again, that's kind of areas where we can get into trouble, you know, from coaching. I remember Dave King talking to you about what it was like to have Theo Fleury and Gary Roberts, and they just wanted to go out and out compete, whereas Joel Otto and Joe Newendike would love some analytical breakdown and some talk. So that's the same for me as as it is for you.

Tom Renney 3:36

Well said, and I'm curious. For example, I I mean I've I've known you a long time anyway, and and though our interactions on a personal basis haven't been quite as often as I would have liked, I already have a sense of comfort. I I did anyway, knowing that we were going to spend this time together. But even now within 10 seconds, you know, it's just it's two guys talking. And you know, there's something about that that I think allows people to be somewhat transparent, authentic for sure, and spontaneous, which I think the viewer, the listener does like for sure. I I'm curious to know then, as you think back on your career, Ron, what have been the most colorful moments in chatting with people, even if there's one, which I doubt?

Ron MacLean 4:16

Can you go there? My funniest moment was at the Olympics in Atlanta. I kind of was smitten by a swimmer named Marianne Limpert. She's a maritimer, she's from Fredericton. At the Commonwealth Games in Victoria in 1994, two years ahead of the Olympics in Atlanta, she wore a black swim cap while the rest of the Canadian team wore white. So I liked her spit. Very talented individual medley swimmer. Joanne Millar was our poster person. She was a great swimmer. We had Curtis Miden from Calgary, we had a really great swim team. Anyway, I was interviewing Mary Ann and the relay team. And Shannon Shakespeare, one of the swimmers, said, Marianne said, Ron's butt looks good today. And that was like shocked I've ever been for all the things Don Cherry did to me over our wonderful 33 years together. I don't think I've ever been so, you know, stopped in my tracks. Uh and that was great. She won a Marianne did a silver medal at those games, and uh just a really uh impressive woman. She got beat by Michelle Smith of Ireland, who was uh anyway. She was over in lane one, and Marianne didn't know she was swimming in the middle. She did a great semifinal. That's probably the highlight, honestly, of my career was being on the pool deck, watching this Marianne Limpert win a silver medal. There's something about the end of a swimming race. It's not like hockey, which is you know, Connor McDavid and Nathan McKinnon going a million miles an hour. It's who's got anything left because everybody's tying up. It's weird. It's a it's a very slow-mo drama. And it's kind of like our life in hockey, Tom. To really understand things, you have to sort of slow down and be around it for a long time. It's like living in a neighborhood. If you live in a neighborhood for 25 years, you can see the change. Right. Yeah. See the change in a week.

Tom Renney 5:52

Is there someone that you spent, that you interviewed or chatted with that was an absolute surprise, like beyond what you were maybe expecting?

Ron MacLean 6:01

Sure. Early in my career, uh, I remember year one doing the hockey broadcasts in Calgary. So Steve Conroyd would end up being uh a TV analyst in Chicago. He blew my mind right away. Tony McKegney blew my mind. Dino Cicerelli talked about his daughter pulling a hot pan of water onto herself. Really, really, you know, I wasn't expecting such a candid emotional interview from Dino. So he was a great hockey goal scorer for those who don't know. He's well before a lot of people's time. Wayne Gretzky was always, you know, for me, Scotty Bowman, Wayne Gretzky, Cliff Fletcher, Tom. My early years in broadcasting are the mid-80s. And Cliff, you know what a mentor he is. He would pull me aside, I'd be 27 years old, and he'd say, Ron, I cannot play our best defenseman. I won't name names here, but he says, uh, every time I play this guy, we lose. He's our best player. He's by far our best player, but I can't play the guy because we lose. And I'm thinking, why is he telling me? You know, but he was that way. He would he would empower you with a very candid conversation. Yeah. Uh and then you protected him, of course. You know, you wouldn't betray a trust. Yeah. Yeah. He's one that I I owe so much to. He he instilled confidence, that communication that made me feel, even as a 20-something, that I was part of it.

Tom Renney 7:12

It's interesting, you know, when I when I think about those in these positions nowadays, you know, and it was such an honor and privilege to spend time with with Cliff and and uh and Pat Quinn. You know, Dave was a huge huge mentor of mine, you know, growing up, wanting desperately to coach the Olympic team. That was my only objective, coaching. And when people say, How did you get to the NHL? I tell them all I wanted to do was that. So I had a focus on that that ended up translating into this. But when I think of those gentlemen and those that are in these positions today, is there anything different by how teams were led from the positions of Cliff and Pat, for example, back in the day, and certainly Glenn? Do you see a difference in how teams are built or constructed or how that leadership may have changed?

Ron MacLean 7:54

Well, the only thing that's really come into the and become a big factor in the last decade is AI and analytics. Eric Tulski just won the uh Stanley Cup with the Carolina Hurricanes. And and yet when when I s talk about Tulski and, you know, even Stan Bowman wasn't a former player, but he's the son of the legendary Scotty Bowman. So by osmosis, he learned a ton about the game. In the last 25 years, Tom, there are Stanley Cup champions. There's only two Stanley Cup champion general managers who played as players in the game. I don't include Ken Holland, again, great friend of yours, and Jimmy Rutherford, who played three Stanley Cups in that window. They're goaltenders. What the heck would they know about face-offs and scoring goals and making passes and throwing hits and fighting and all that stuff? You'd think a goalie would be hard-pressed to go to the roster, but he's not. Those two are examples. But more than that, so the two players are Joe Sakick and Brian McClellan. They're the only players to GM a Stanley Cup in the last quarter century. Wow. There's been six lawyers Brian Burke and Jay Feaster and Dean Lombardi and Bill Zito and Julian Brisbois and Peter Sarelli. So, like you know, you can come at this from many different avenues. You chose, as you did at North Dakota late in your uh tenure there, to just really commit to coaching and leave school. I was in uh a tough position too, as after grade 12. Do I go to the U of A or do I start on this broadcasting path as a DJ? I was spinning records and you know, but I love the idea of making people's day. I had a lot of anxiety, but I got through that uh slowly. But I just knew that if you put in the work, there is a different path than this the traditional, you know, go to school for four years, etc. And you you did that and I did that. And so even although it's changed, when I mentioned that there's six lawyers of one that come, it can't be that different.

Tom Renney 9:37

Right. That's that's a really interesting insight. I appreciate that. And and and I wonder too, Ron, you know, with respect to choosing broadcasting, did you pursue it and learn? Obviously at the same time, did you have any kind of schooling that took you in that direction? And what's the evolution? I mean, you're to me, you're one of the greatest of all time. But Ron, I I think, you know, be humble. I believe that, and I think millions of Canadians feel similarly. But as you alluded to, you know, I left school with a semester to go, and you know, I was a president and CEO of uh NSO with lots of peaks and valleys along the way, which is great. I mean, that's all part of the journey. Tell me a little bit about how or how this evolved for you.

Ron MacLean 10:17

You were 37 and you achieved your dream, which is crazy. You know, you wanted to be coach of the national team and you were at Lillehammer in in your 37th year. I mean, honestly, Tom, I'm bumbling along early in my career. I wanted to be a hybrid of every person I admired on TV, whether it was Johnny Carson or there was a DJ in Edmonton named Wes Montgomery. I wanted to be a mix of all these folks, Dave Hodge. I didn't know what I wanted. You know, how to be authentic, how to be me was a real you know, tough go at the get-go. But I learned from that Weinhein Rick Wainberry that what one communication, I eventually kind of moved up at the radio station as one does in a smaller market. I'm from Red Deer, Alberta. So the population of the town was about 35,000 when I started. And I I became the program director, and right away I hired a guy from Fresno, California, and a man named Jay Trockman, to come in to speak to our broadcasters. I was so naive, I didn't realize you can't bring someone from the United States into Canada without a work permit or visa. Uh that was a buckle at the Edmonton Airport. Thank God a gracious customs officer saw I was just a kid, 24 years old, running a radio station, and he let the man in, and the man, Jay Trockman, he starts with our morning man, a guy named Danny Teat, and he said, Danny, you know, you phrased that this way on that bit on the air. It might be a good idea to go this direction. And Danny Teat says to Jay Trockman, Jay, I've been at this for 30 years. I can't change now. And Jay slammed the desk. He says, Danny, you're an adult. You can change anything you want. And uh, this is how it went. But I like you, I just have learning and learning. You know, Chris Hetfield says uh achievement isn't climbing, it's learning. And we're both disciples of that blessing of, you know, reading and listening and reading and listening. That's the excitement of a new day. And I go back to again, your father-in-law created the first student athlete program at uh what was then Notre Dame University in Nelson, British Columbia. Right. When I started Calgary Flames in 1984, I made a list for you. This is an unbelievable list of collegians who played for the Calgary Flames in 1984. So we're talking over 40 years ago. Now it's commonplace to have NCAA Division I players, but back then it was a real scarcity or rarity. Here are the collegians, and I'm a broadcaster, so I have to interview the Flames players, and they all have degrees. Like they're schooling me uh at every turn. But yeah, this is 8485. Carrie Wilson, Dartmouth, Eddie Beers, Denver, Colin Patterson, not your Colin Patterson, uh, Colin Patterson, Clarkson, Mike Eves, Wisconsin, Jamie McCown, Ohio State, Steve Bozek, we know Northern Michigan, Gino Cavallini, Bowling Green, Joel Otto, Bemidji State, Neil Sheehe, Harvard, Perry Barrizan, North Dakota, your school, Gary Souter, Wisconsin, Joey Mullen, Boston College, Brett Hall, Minnesota, Duluth, two Canadian university guys, Charlie Bourgeois from Moncton, Terry Johnson from the University of Calgary. The coach is Badger Bob Johnson, Wisconsin, and Pierre Paget from Dalhousie is on the coaching staff. So that was again, you get lucky. I got so lucky. I I would I would hold the microphone and they take care of uh the two-minute interview. And the theory Wayne Berry taught me was if you let your guest shine, you'll be the star. Right. But it's funny how they shone, but it kind of allowed me to get to where I got.

Tom Renney 13:24

You mentioned also, Ron, a little bit of anxiety at a point in time, and I can relate to that too. It and uh it's it's Did you? For sure. You know, I can remember going into the Olympics. It was my dream. And, you know, as you mentioned, my father-in-law, Ernie, was uh I just wished that he was alive when I started this coaching journey. Can you imagine that relationship, Ron, with your father-in-law that was pretty much way ahead of his time, you know, as a hockey person and as a leader himself. But I remember going in into the little hammer and thinking, okay, this is what you wanted. And we were not picked to do very well. I think our pundits were saying that we would be lucky to be playing in the middle round. And fair enough. But I was certainly anxious there. I was able to overcome that because of a great group and a great culture. And that's kind of where I'm heading with this. There is a culture in hockey that I think is certainly misrepresented and maybe misunderstood, and that's you know, taking care of each other and having a room and an environment where people felt safe, felt they could come and contribute together to do something special. And certainly as a coach, you know, that's all I ever wanted was to make 23 guys feel fantastic at the end of the night. And uh that was certainly the case with pursuing a gold medal in the Olympics. But there was anxiety there, for sure. And I can tell you too that I a number of years ago I got quite sick with Crohn's, I was diagnosed with Crohn's and colitis and uh on top of rheumatoid arthritis and got very sick and was down to a a buck forty, my my dad's fighting weight back in the day. But so there was definitely anxiety coming out of that and trying to, you know, get your health together. So I I felt that. I felt depression for sure, but I was able to bounce out of that because of my family, Ron. Glenda, if you marry a gare, buckle up. So I did. Certainly worked my way through it and feeling great, doing well. So when when you talked about anxiety, how did you break free?

Ron MacLean 15:05

Well, honestly, and I don't tell children suffering from panic attacks this because I think it would be defeatist to hear. For me, honestly, Tom, it was from the time I was 18 until the time I was 35. Like even when I was a 34-year-old and I'd be at the National Hockey League Awards at maybe the then Air Canada Center, and the drum roll happens and the fireworks go, and now your host, Ron McLean. And honest to God, my heart would start, and I it was like, okay, I crack a joke immediately to buy time, and I would do anything I could to kind of get through that. And I think, Tom, you told a story somewhere about speaking in Saskatchewan at a seminar, and you relived being fired by the Vancouver Canucks. And one of the people responded to your talk, gave you five stars, but said you got to get over the Canucks. And you took that to heart a little. But I still think that vulnerability is important. I'm I'm glad you talked about getting fired for the first time and learning from it. And I don't think grief is a pile of poo to step over. I think you have to kind of walk in and almost proudly, you know, and you do, uh, and always have. But I I just learned to get out of myself, to not take myself quite as seriously. You know, I just lived and died with everything that I did. I was probably too proud. I hate pride as an idea, but I was probably guilty of it. And you know, it can be a driving force in your commitment to putting in the preparation and the work. You know, you're right about friends. Like you had Glenn Say there, another enormous influence in my life and your life. And think about all the guys that Glenn gave second chances to when he was running the Edmonton Oilers. He taught Wayne how to do that. Wayne, as manager of the 2002 Olympic team, brought in Michael Pecca, who'd been in a contract squabble for a year. Eric Lindross, who'd blown up. People think Eric had a concussion situation. He did when Scott Stevens hit him, but it was actually his shoulder was annihilated. Every single ligament in that shoulder was destroyed. And London Health Science has put him back together amazingly. And so he put him on the team. Theo Fleury was going through the chains of addiction. He put him on the team. That was Wayne, and you know, the support. And that was because Sayther had showed Wayne how to do that. And I was around that. I was around it with Cliff Fletcher and at Whalen and Calgary, John Davidson, another of our friends, mutual friends. Yeah. He was really good to me when I was a young broadcaster. So I kind of understood it comes with the territory. I'd been a referee, though, Tom. It's funny. I'd refereed at a pretty high level, uh, level five Canada, Hockey Canada program, refereed semi-pro hockey. Never felt nervous in a tough situation on the ice. I was in movement, was my theory. You know, that I was always skating, and maybe that bought me uh, you know, a separation from dwelling. Boy. Anyway, it was a tough and the key was to get out of myself, to start to be like Mother Teresa. If you want to help yourself, help someone. I I kind of got myself to that space of, okay, stop worrying about you and start elevating others. And that was what broke me from the chains of that doubt.

Tom Renney 17:47

That is so interesting. I I love the the research you've done, Grant, and I know it's right at the top of your mind anyway, but I do recall, you know, that when someone told me Tom's gotta f forget about Vancouver. And I thought it was a great, I did a great job. And yet I cracked jokes about being fired and Vancouver and all that kind of stuff. Clearly I wasn't over it. I was trying to be funny about it. And the individual picked up on it, and that was a turnaround for me.

Ron MacLean 18:09

So tell me about hone in that regard. I'm sure you speak about it a lot on the show, but this whole idea of knowing the various silos of stress or trauma that that leads to, whether it's depression or any mental illness really, that's so golden. Like in my day when I had that anxiety going on, nobody talked about that. And I and that's why it that's why it took for me close to 17 years to shed.

Tom Renney 18:30

Yeah, very, very interesting, Ron. Great you brought it up. I try my best as an advocate of honey not to push it too hard, but appreciate you bringing it up. The whole idea of it is to is to create that environment where people that might have struggles with fatigue, which is pretty much everybody in any dressing room for that matter, but also criticism, general well-being. And I think that, you know, there is a there is a component there that the person in front of the room, you know, has to help navigate and build that culture. And so, you know, the if if there was a strong culture, you know, in a dressing room, someone that does have that difficulty potentially with mental health, certainly with the requirements of, you know, a high pressure job, if you will, and that comes with the territory, but things like pressure, things like criticism, things like fatigue, overall well-being, what to do with discretionary time, you know, those things are are very real, you know, and they all present themselves in different ways for the individual. And the whole idea behind hone is to make sure that through a mechanism of identifying these stressors and where you are on this performance wheel within that one of those seven stressors, the coach now gets the opportunity to look at the team, the group, and identify through these stressors where there might be some problems with fatigue, or there may be someone who consistently is scoring low in criticism. And it gives them the opportunity to speak to that issue with the group, and it has required a subject matter expert potentially as a third party coming in and talking to the group, or even offload and take the off-ramp to uh the mental performance coach, sports psychologist, or whatever. It's anonymous. And so participation is really is high because of that. Uh, you know, a lot of us and as coaches, we just want to help. Tell me who it is, let me help, let me fix it. I can, you know, I can fix that. We'd like to think that, and sometimes we do believe our guts are our brains, and many times they are. The intuition is good to us, but we're not necessarily schooled to this end to be able to help along those lines. So being able to offload with anonymity is really important. And and it does help, quite honestly, with performance. You know, I've I've asked a number of people, I think I might have even asked Pete De Boer, would you believe happiness is a competitive advantage? And he said, absolutely, 100%. You know, it is. And maybe it becomes more like joy or enjoyment, you know, as we age. But there's nothing wrong with being happy doing a job. When I was in Vancouver, Ron, I underachieved, I did not do a good job. I did not understand the National Hockey League player like I thought I did. I'd had them at World Championships and short-term competitions, everything was fine. But now I had them for a season. And I started to see the side eye, and I thought, okay, and you know what am I doing here? And I wasn't enjoying it. I wasn't having fun myself. I was trying to be what had been described as opposed to what was authentic and really me. And the feedback in Saskatchewan at the University of Saskatchewan at a conference was massive for me. And then the next thing was back to Hockey Canada for a couple of years and then into New York. And from that point on, I've had the time in my life. Not that I didn't prior, but I've had the time of my life. So it's so and Hoan and I are very synonymous. The way the way Hone works is kind of how I've liked the coach and operate as a leader.

Ron MacLean 21:38

Well, I'll tell you, when I heard you break it down for the first time, whenever it was that I heard, and I I loved those different stressors. You know, it could be like Bill Clem is an umpiring hero of mine. He wrote about, you know, never sell your soul. He wrote a lot about uh the opposing manager who come out of the dugout to criticize him for a bad call. And one guy was the leader of the New York Giants, you know, before they moved to San Francisco, and he said. Clem, I can have your job for this. And Clem said, Well, if you can have my job, I don't want the job. Kind of a sour grapes response to it. But he he said, deep down, you think the criticism didn't bother me as an umpire. He said, but I could feel it in a loss of coordination. I could feel it in the anxiety in the mental state that I would find myself in. He really internalized it and uh again, way back a century ago, would have had nowhere to go. One guy I read that's so this is similar to the hone theory of you know, it's not just one aspect. Uh it can be all these different parts of the realm that lead you down that path. That's why the anonymous revelation of it is important. But it's so John Ralston Saltom wrote a two books. One's called Unequilibrium, and the other is Unconscious Civilization, where he breaks down the six elements of a thought. He says, you rely on your common sense, you rely on your creativity, your memory, which is your your history, you rely on your intuition, your ethics. Intuition is a is a big one. And again, you know, do I trust my intuition? Not always. So you need other checks and balances. Reason is the sixth and final one. So if you use those components when you're sitting, you know, down the night before a speech, and you think, okay, my gut tells me this, but does common sense or does reason or does ethics or does memory, history? I've been burned trying, you know, like right now I'm getting ready for the new season and I'm trying to. I have a lovely story, I think, about three guys from Wisconsin. One of them's Badger Bob Johnson, came to Canada, and the rest is history. Another is Jesse Marsh, the soccer coach, came to Canada from Wisconsin. And the third guy is a guy named Albert Cameron Howe, who moved to Humboldt in the early 1900s. That's Gordy Howe's dad. So there's one and now there's a bridge in Saskatoon and there's a bridge to the United States in his name, Gordy Howes. So I'm I'm toying with the idea of the bridge building between the two nations, because as you know, these are tough times.

Tom Renney 23:47

Yes.

Ron MacLean 23:48

I'm also aware that if I say anything, you know, either remotely uh accusatory or wrong, you know, I could light a cauldron of dissent and uh confusion. So boy, these are the sort of pressures, the things that, you know, I'm not a Supreme Court justice, but they're the things that keep you up at night.

Tom Renney 24:07

But what what's really interesting, Ron, in our in our talk here is again, just how authentic you are, the uh the fluidity with which you talk. I don't feel like and I guess maybe this is experience and just being comfortable with yourself, but there's nothing contrived, there's nothing calculated, and that's just kind of being at peace with yourself, right? And you know, you talked earlier about how our mind works in these these three pillars, if you will. I can remember, if you remember the theories read and react in hockey, it's it's hockey lingo. And I used to talk about read and react and even from a business vernacular, and in between read and react is choice. And with choice comes judgment. And I think somewhere there that's where it gets a little bit blurred. You know, I we we just have to make sure that we understand the value of judgment. When, where, how, and why, you know, we insert ourselves and whatnot, whatever in whatever manner that might be. But you're always so seamless at that. I'm curious how do you because when I look at when I look at the panel and I look at uh you know how you work with the you know the individuals around the table, and you know how you invite people in to talk, you give them room to say what they need. You're like an orchestra leader, you know, it's a symphony of people, and you allow people to be themselves, you invite people to be themselves, you like the humor, you invite the humor, and it's just very interactive and and fan-friendly. Do you learn that over time?

Ron MacLean 25:25

Well, that's let your guests be the star. That was Wayne Heinrich taught me. Let your guests be the star, Ron, and you'll shine. Yeah, I love it. So that is calculated, I hate to say. But it's also Tom, we might have five, six minutes, three people. Kelly Rudy's not gonna do it this year, but Kelly, Jennifer Boderell, and say Kevin Bieksa. Cal Boderell is obviously Jennifer's uh dad, a preeminent sports psychologist. Yep. Kevin BXa's father has long time been in charge of workplace safety with the unions in British Columbia. He's really good at saying to Kevin, okay, Kevin, hold it just a minute here. Yeah. You're gonna say partner, not husband. You're gonna grow, you know, within our society. So you have three, you know, really conscientious good hearts who know, like, you know, even when Kevin and Jen will go back and forth on maybe the fighting, because obviously it's not part of the Women's Olympic program. It's a huge part of Kevin's life. Yeah. But Kevin will always go and check on Jen, you know, or vice versa. You know, they're there. So I know they're like you said, when you coached Vancouver, I know to give them space. I know they'll sort it out. They're adults. And I'm I'm just grateful that at my stage of my career, I'm not trying to prove myself, so I don't have to interject uh, you know, and get my 30 seconds.

Tom Renney 26:34

So here's here's a question I just wrote down as you were chatting, and I apologize for that. What what are you still trying to get better at, Ron?

Ron MacLean 26:40

Well, I'm too heavy-handed in my sermons or my in my teaching. You know, like Mark Twain said, the mark of an intelligent man is his ability to communicate the idea. I will come back, you know, proudest punch of something I've done, and then I realize, oh God, it was either pretentious or way too long-winded. So I'm always thinking, okay, what's that little unlock? Right. You know, and even uh one of my heroes is a guy named David Byrne, lead singer of the talking heads. Yeah. He wrote a whole book on music and the crucible performance and the art of writing and all this stuff. And at the end of the book, he said, I love a good story. I also happen to like staring at the sea. Do I have to choose between the two? And and I guess for me, because I like a story, then I have to think, okay, but the viewer might want to just stare at the sea right now, so shut up. Uh so that's I'm I'm always working at trying to be good at that. I wanted to tell you one thing, Tom, about again, just an innate comfort level. Goes without saying, Danny Gare, for your viewer here. Danny taught me about his dad pulling Danny in as a 16-year-old after the Nelson, British Columbia had won the provincial U-17 championships. And Ernie, his dad says, What do you want to do, Danny, now with the rest of your life? He says, You know, Dad, I want to be an NHL player. He says, Well, good. He says, But there's a kid in every town in Canada who wants to be an NHL player, Danny. So we're going to work out at four o'clock up at the college every day. And you're going to learn to box a little because you're a small guy, you're going to have you kind of lippy. We're going to do all these different things to get you ready for an NHL career. And every day that we do a workout, we'll put a thumbtack over this map of Canada behind me. Yeah. Danny said when he got drafted two years later, the map of Canada in his dad's office was completely smothered in thumbtacks, which was just a great metaphor for the work you put in. But so for me, for you, when I think of Tom Rennie for all that you've done, especially the Hockey Canada side of it, because I know, you know, you're trying to deal with all these disparate interests, uh, really good job. So I'm at the Olympics in Sochi, Tom, in 2014. And my shift was a two-parter. I would do the hockey games during the afternoon in the case of the women and the evening. The men usually played at 9 Canada at nine at night. And then I would go to the International Broadcast Center to prepare for my anchoring shift because I was anchoring the prime time in Canada, which was 7 o'clock Eastern, but it was 4 o'clock in the morning in Russia. 4 o'clock the next day in Russia is when I would sign on the air. That meant I had midnight to four to fill. I'd have a quick bite to eat. Then I would go do more prep. And then I would go for a walk at about 2.33 just to kind of clear my head in the building. The building was a giant convention center. And so atriums and escalators and hallways and all these meeting rooms that were converted into studios and control rooms for all the countries of the world. We were the only ones up at that hour. The United States was also on the air, but they had their own little facility in the Olympic cluster in Sochi. So I'm wandering the hallways by myself. But what was great, there were photos of all the previous Winter Olympics and all the great moments and people and heroes. And I'm I'm wandering the hallways, and there's only one Canadian in the entire setup. And he's uh wearing a mask. It's hard to read what he's about, but I do know that he's an absolute hero in Russia. This is Sochi Russia. This guy is a hero to them. He's not that well known to us Canadians. And there's the guy, it's Seth Martin. Yeah. He was outstanding in the 1964. He's Vladislav Tretchak's hero from the trail, where you and Glenda had a gene shop. And I, you know, that's right, Ron. I'm able to think to myself, you know, two people running a gene shop in Trail, BC, the heart of hockey, and the other's the hero to Vladislav Tretchak.

Tom Renney 30:10

Yeah. It's amazing. I know when Seth passed away, I know as was described to me, I wasn't there that Vladimir cried because Seth was his guy. That's um who he emulated and tried to follow as a as a some type of an example of how to be a pro.

Ron MacLean 30:24

Yeah. You know, and even I'm I'm gonna build another story, hopefully, for hockey night this year. It's weird. Paul Henderson, obviously the hero of 72 Summit series for Russia, it was Vladislav Tretiak for Canadian Forward, of course, Toronto Maple Leaf, Paul Henderson. It's now the Maple Leafs are trying to get it together again, and they've brought in a Russian goaltender and they've brought in Gavin McKenna. Right. And they both wear 72. So it's kind of the spirit of 72 all over again. We'll see if it works for the Leafs.

Tom Renney 30:49

Yeah, let's let's hope so. That's for sure. I I've got another couple of questions for you, Ron. If you could tell yourself now, or as a youngster, what would you tell the young Ron McLean? I know it's a cliche question, but there's so much value in your insight. I want to make sure that we touch on this.

Ron MacLean 31:05

Well, I I would say never forget what mom and dad were about. Uh like my mom, Tom, used to come in. Uh, she would she held like your dad, I think Joe, was more of the taskmaster uh in terms of your career and your, you know, disciplining you. But he for sure held you to a really high standard. And uh that was my mom in our household. My father was more a well-leave enough alone, but my father was you know 32 years in the military and then worked for the RCMP for 15 years as a dispatcher. So I remember he coming to me one day, Tom, in Innesvale, Alberta at the Dwayne Danes rodeo. And uh Mounty said he was retired by this time. He said, You know, Ron, your father was uh on the night that we had a massive car crash in Killum, Alberta. Uh six people perished at the moment of the crash, and nine were severely injured. And I was the first responder, just me, in you know, the prairies, middle of the night. And your father and I had to work through that. Your dad had to call for backup support, your dad had to call orange air ambulance, your dad was the he was my lifeline, and he was incredibly cool under pressure that night. And I thought, oh boy. Now I didn't realize I might have got that from my dad. Whereas my mom during the afternoon, my mom would get so mad at me, Ronnie, you can do better in school or you can do better at this. But then she'd come and sit on the edge of my bed at you know eight or nine, whenever I'd go to bed, and uh she'd say, Ronnie, I'm sorry. I was uh, you know, hot today. It really had nothing to do with you. It's dad and me trying to hold two jobs, and I took it out on you, and don't you feel bad about that? And that sense of apology, you know, which a lot of people will say is a sign of weakness. Uh no, I I kind of had that, Tom. I I had that idea that I can forgive myself and then I I would always forgive others, maybe to a fault. But uh in my wife, Carrie always says, Ron, you forgive everybody because you don't think there's anything you're not capable of doing yourself, which is a terrible indictment in a way. But that carried me through anxiety. It has carried me through the throes of a you know a really lovely career. But there are lots of moments when I sit before the red light on the camera hits, and I might have to deal with a very serious situation in the news, might have to deal with my own mess. Closure might close just closing a show, a telecast, uh at the end of the you know, nine months of hockey night in Canada. And it's just you're sitting waiting for the commercial to end and it's go time and it's live and it's a story. And again, don't come across as pretentious doing it, but you you really look forward to that like an athlete. You're you're going to compete with yourself.

Tom Renney 33:29

It's interesting, Ron. I I uh sorry for going so long. It's just so interesting. I was talking to a young fellow a couple weeks ago who was having some struggles, and he said, you know, you've got to go through the nine rings of hell on earth before you get to heaven. And I said, Well, you know what I think? I agree with you. And um, as you well know with Hockey Canada, for example, uh, you know, the half half dozen years have not been a lot of fun, much better now, and and things are level set. But I said to him, But I I do believe that there's heaven on earth, and I believe that, Ron. And I and I think that we have an opportunity, not only that, but an obligation to both pay it backward, and you certainly have with your parents and other people that you've mentioned along the way here that have helped you get to where you are. But I don't know of someone who's paid it forward like you have, Ron. And I mean that. And you do it every broadcast, every time you're in front of a podium, anytime you're talking to somebody, it's absolutely magic. And I hope that we have the opportunity to maybe revisit this podcast. Hopefully it lasts long and you know gets its desired results in my mind, and that's just you know, to illuminate what's right and you know how we all have a journey and it's not always pleasant, but we do come out the other side of it, especially when we have an opportunity to share, and that's that's what this has been all about. So I I just can't thank you enough, Ron, for for jumping on with me. I know you're a very, very busy guy and and uh have had nothing but admiration for you since the day I met you and have continued to watch you. And uh I don't see that changing anytime soon. So thanks a whole lot for coming on.

Ron MacLean 34:55

Well, I I'm sure, Tommy, you've you've can sensed how much I've learned from you. So right back at you. Appreciate it. Really enjoy. Thanks, Ron. All the best.