Tom Renney 0:00

Uh hi Jim, how are you? I hope all is well and thanks for taking the time. This is uh new thing for me, and I'm not gonna at all for a second judge how well I do on this. So with that said, you shouldn't either.

Tim Hiller 0:11

Yeah, right. You're only as good as the host. I'll say this. It's good to talk to you, but better than that, it's good to see you. I don't know when the last time we actually were in each other's presence. I know we've talked a fair amount, but being in each other's presence has been a while. You look great, by the way.

Tom Renney 0:24

Thanks, Jimmy. Yeah, I feel I feel terrific. Uh been a bit of a long haul, and uh, you know, the ups and downs of life do that to us, and you would well know that as a coach. But you've had a great career, Jim, and really excited uh for your next adventure, and we're wishing you good luck there. If you don't mind, I'm gonna take you back a little bit, Jim. Port Albernie, you know, with uh and you coach junior in Port Albernie. So this is your that was your first big like full-time coaching job, if I if I'm not mistaken. What lessons from junior and even Tri-City and whatnot beyond that? What lessons from junior were you able to bring with you to your subsequent NHL coaching experiences?

Tim Hiller 0:57

Well, you know, that's that's a good question. And I thought in junior it was fun. You're just getting started as a coach, so you're, you know, you got all kinds of energy and thoughts, and like anything, when you start something new or a new career path, you've got all these ideas, you think you got it all figured out, and then you hit the road running and you realize, well, maybe I didn't have it all figured out. Uh but through that, what I found was just how much I enjoyed it, how much I enjoyed the players and being with the team in a different role, not just you know, in the dressing room playing on the bus with the guys, but now you're kind of leading that group of guys that you were once part of. And I thought I had some really good relationships with those guys. We laugh still in contact, and that's the biggest thing I took away from it. And the transition, I remember the transition to the NHL, I was thinking, oh, you can't do that. Like you can't be like that. Right, right. This is going to be different because you can't be like that. And then what I found was you can't be completely like that, but you certainly can still enjoy the guys and have fun with the guys and make it try and make it, despite the stakes being much higher, try and still make it a fun environment, an enjoyable environment for everybody, not just the players, the coaches too.

Tom Renney 2:12

Interesting. And so would you say maybe not change is the wrong word, but maybe growth as a coach through those experiences with junior and two good leagues for sure. And and where did you make any changes or adjustments, or where was your significant growth coming out of junior hockey and moving into ultimately at the end of the day, what becomes the best level of hockey in the world?

Tim Hiller 2:31

Yeah. I don't know if there was one moment or one time that I can point to outside of. So when I left Portal Bernie in the BC League, I took over Chilliwack, an expansion team in the Western Hockey League. Right. And we had two really good seasons out of the gate, or I mean, relatively, I guess you could say, you know, made the playoffs. And then on the third season, we stumbled a little bit, did not make the playoffs, and I got my first firing, I guess. So, you know, which kind of everybody has to go through that, and oftentimes more than once. That I would say was the biggest growth because at that point, you know, everything's fun and everything's positive, and it looks like the arrows are up and you're all excited. And now you get one of those messages, and I think then you have to sit back and reflect. And we all know at that time, you know, we have young families, you're not getting paid very well in junior hockey, and so it's a stressful situation. So I think more than growing as a coach, you have to grow as a person that's in the coaching stream, I think, and understanding this is what it's like. And so I would look at that moment. Fortunately, uh Bob Torrey in in uh Tri-Cities, you know, hired me to be the head coach there. I went down there and and we had some good success there, and you know, and things carried on. But during that time, that was the toughest time. And I don't know if you recall. I do. I remember writing you along. My wife said to me, you know what? Reach out to Tom, be honest, write your thoughts. And that was a really hard thing to do. I had to write, wrote you this letter and what I thought, you know, on my qualities were and my strengths. And so I remember that. That would probably be the biggest growth, Tom, if I had really had to think about it and I hadn't.

Tom Renney 4:07

You know what's interesting, Jim? I did all. And we spent some time together in the past, obviously, and spent some time with the national team. And by the way, that's when I knew I I said to myself, this guy's a coach. Jim is gonna coach. Because you just had that way about you and very forward thinking and organizing your thoughts. Not in a bad way, but you you challenged the moment, which I thought was great. But when I got fired in Vancouver, boy, I went through relief. You could only read about yourself so many times on the front page of the newspaper. Yeah. Then I was mad, and then I got introspective, finally, and um you know started to sort out where I could have been better and what I may have needed to improve on as a coach. So I I think you're bang on there, Jim. And I I hope we get enough of that moving forward for coaches, for players, girls and boys, women in the game, uh, because it's gonna come. And if you without that little bit of a slip, it's not a perfect world. And we both know that perfection is is a dream of some sort because it doesn't exist. So I I do recall that, and it's interesting you said that because I as I asked the question you were answering, I thought, well, I know what mine is, and bang, I mean you nailed it. And I think without that, Jim, we're different coaches for sure. We don't grow like we could.

Tim Hiller 5:15

No, it you know, it comes for everybody, seemingly, at some point, and you can say relief, but let's be honest, it really sucks. It hurts. There's a lot of emotions that go with it. And then again, I think most importantly, you know, you hear from people, they wish you well, you know, you get all your friends on your side, and then it goes quiet. And then you just got to really think about it and think about who you are and where you're gonna get to, and can your family keep going down this path and all those things? And I think it really helps you know kind of crystallize your vision for yourself or your passion. How passionate are you about this? Do you really want to keep going down the path? And I think you know, if you can get through that part, and fortunately, if you know somebody gives you another job and gives you another chance to take a swing at it, you come out better. There's no question.

Tom Renney 6:01

You just answered my next question, and I think too, even with that being said, better far beyond hockey. You know, better as a husband, as a dad, you know, as a citizen, basically. You know, just in leadership in general in your life, but also just more of a participant. You know, you've gone through that and you feel relevant, not so you know, required, all those things, but you're just more a participant. You're not staring past your kids at the dinner table, you're actually looking at them again and having those conversations. And I I certainly do remember that. And I'm glad we're talking about this because it's reality, isn't it, Jen? It's in fact life. And um there you go. We're pretty resilient people when we're given the opportunity, and that's what that's exactly what this is.

Tim Hiller 6:37

And um, I mean, I think most people are, but sometimes you're not put into that position. You know what I mean? We have had the greatest job in the world in our minds, there's no question. And I think there's a lot of people who love to do our jobs, but there certainly are times when it's not as rose-colored as as everybody expects, and it's at those times. But I also think for the kids, I I can speak for my kids, as disappointed as they've always been at different times, you know, you gotta leave friends and and that, it's made them stronger down the path, too. I really believe that. And you know, there's been tears and all those kinds of things, but they've they've come out on the right side of it for me, and it's larger because they've had to deal with some things.

Tom Renney 7:16

Well, and I think, yeah, and I think too having that family group, the camaraderie on the friendship circles are really critical, which concerns me a little bit today because we seem to go to the handheld device for all of our problems. And um, you know, when really this the solutions and the help with the solutions are usually sitting right in front of us are very close by and they're called human beings. Yeah, yeah. Not technology. Yeah. So fast forward now, you you you've had some really good work done in the in the NHL. Uh, I remember he's a terrific coach, terrific power play guy, very inventive and creative about the game, Jim. And I always really like that. When we had practices back in the day, we had a blank pace to do what we want to do. We could try just about anything on the ice, and we did, of course. But a lot of that came from players. And again, as I mentioned earlier, yourself. I'm curious to know, this is off the beaten track a little bit. I I have an opinion on perfection, Jim, and and we all seek it, sure, that's wonderful. But I think it's a, I'm not telling you it's a waste of time. I think I believe strongly in excellence. 100% strongly in excellence. Tell me what your thoughts are, what your relationship is with perfection and a hope high-profile sport that A's starts with young children, but works out to the A's group of PWHL players and NHL players, the best in the world. Tell me about your relationship with perfection and how you work with it or around it or how you deliver on what's expected of your players and even yourself.

Tim Hiller 8:36

Yeah, that's really a good question. And I think I would go to excellence as well. I think it's a probably a better word. Maybe we're just disguising it and make yourself feel better when we call it excellence and not perfection. Maybe it is perfection. Um I just know that for me, and I guess perfection is unattainable, but when I when I see it at different times, and you can see it at different times in in younger players, you can see it, I saw it in junior for a moment. You can see flashes. Similarly to you, we had the good fortune to coach Pavel Datsuk. And there's times when you just watched him and you thought, that is excellence or perfection. Not every night, every shift, but moments. And to me, it's the greatest thing when you see it. And and maybe it's only five seconds in a moment, but you're like, that is incredible. And you can't attain that, and there's very few players that can attain that. But in that moment, you you see what that can actually look like. So, and understanding that every player can't get there, but to know that it is there, that that to me was really exciting. So that's the way I look at it. I just get excited when I see something at such a high level and to know that that's even possible to do something like that. And then I back it down from there. So I see it as an individual, but you also see it as a team. There's nights when your team, or some nights, unfortunately, the other team just plays so well. You walk up the bench into the dressing room and you're like, hopefully it's your team, like, wow, did we play well tonight? It's just such a great feeling because you know it's probably not going to happen night after night. Right. There's other times when you say, Wow, did they play well tonight? And to me, it's those moments that you know are there because you've seen them that you can strive for as a coach with your team, and also really appreciate about individual players at at different times. And again, it doesn't have to be Pavel Delski and the NHL. It can be a minor hockey game where I think of my sons. Some nights they played really well. They were not high-level players, but that was excellence for them. And I just think when you see it, you just got to appreciate it.

Tom Renney 10:44

Here's something I've always kind of struggled with this, Jim. May and maybe that's why I never got close to winning, you know, to the level that I would have liked my players to enjoy. I we all want to win, but I I've always wanted to do it so the players could just feel great. But I've always wondered too, if in the pursuit of perfection, we end up being somewhat frustrated. Our moods swing. I think we maybe stifle creativity. And so I I pursue, and maybe it's my background too, Jim, with excellence. Not so much that I have it, but I tried to help others get there. Now I like your point on the individual, you know, those moments in time. And that's just a great example. Probably one of the best two-way players to ever play the game of hockey. And he was he was excellent at it. I'm just curious of, and you mentioned youth hockey and the requirement for perfection there, not just from coaches or parents or grandparents in the stands or whatever, but associations and organizations. I just want to make sure we don't lose something of the soul of creativity, of using imagination, of being inventive, because if we're looking for perfection, sometimes it fits in this box. And that kind of concerns me. So, you know, that the idea of going after perfection and seldom finding it, but still, you know, being creative and inviting that. Because I think creativity and imagination is the hardest thing to defend in any anywhere, provided they have the opportunity to use it. And also from the other side of the fence, you know, or at least from a similar side of the fence, when I'm seeking perfection, sometimes I feel like I'm more disappointed than I should be.

Tim Hiller 12:10

Yeah.

Tom Renney 12:10

And I don't like that feeling. I want excellence. And if it starts with excellent effort, we can build off of that passion that you mentioned about earlier. If there's passion there, we can build off of that. But there are moments, and you nailed it, Jimmy, I where you just stand back and you've got the best seat in the house. Yeah. The team is on board and they're moving and they know who they're out against. They know the flow of the of the cadence of the game, the cadence of shift links, all those types of things, and you're just watching. And as much as that happened, which wasn't a great deal, it did happen. Yeah. And you might be onto something there, Jim. I don't disagree with that. I I think there are moments for sure, individually, and even as a group, where we touch perfection. And that's a that's a pretty cool thing, for sure.

Tim Hiller 12:49

It is. And I'm with you on the frustration part, and I think that's the fine line that we all, and I would say all, all of us as coaches or leaders have to deal with. Where's the encouragement? Where's the creativity? And there's always going to be mistakes within that. And how do we react? And I don't know how well I played for you, so I think you were similar. I oftentimes, I guess I don't yell and scream that much. I don't feel like I do. Maybe others might disagree. Comes out, sometimes it's it really comes out, but I certainly have a mental conversation with myself in my head that I try to uh try to manage at times. And and yeah, there are the moments where I'm like, wow, this is great, but there's way too many where I'm like, I can't say here. You know what I mean? And I and I agree with you. I think that managing that is probably something that myself and and probably others can do better. And I don't know, I don't know what that is. I don't know if that's your ego or that's just your will to win or what it is exactly. It's hard to define, but I think personally I could probably manage that better.

Tom Renney 13:53

At the same time, be yourself, right? They don't want a counterfeit coach. They want the real deal, they want honesty, and I think that we maybe can evaluate ourselves to a standstill. Hopefully not, because you want it to be fluid too. And there's a certain natural phenomena in the group setting where, you know, it's its own little culture. And um, you know, I think the big thing is we all just want to make sure we contribute to it and don't distract from it, and not at the expense of you know, discipline or taking responsibility, uh holding ourselves and each other accountable. That's all really, really important. That's I think how you deliver on that. That's really important too. And when someone tries something, you know, I've always encouraged coaches with young people, you know, let them try things, let them experiment and have fun with this, and you might find something. And I can remember so many people you could score. I just remember watching people how they went about their own business without any kind of interaction from me at all, just what they brought. And it was pretty mind-boggling. And it certainly paid, I think, kudos to minor hockey coaches and and those that had the kids along the way, not even in hockey, but school and you know, whatever they did with their discretionary time. And I think leadership's a big deal there. Jim, what do you hope players that have played for you, what do you hope they take away from their from their experience with you?

Tim Hiller 15:01

Yeah, that's a good question, too. Well, there's two things. I hope they got better as players and understood the game better. Just understood maybe how the game works better, and then within that improved. And I say this all the time. I I hope today, as they sit wherever they are, they have some really good memories of playing on that team that year, that season, whether it was one season, two or three, that they can look back and say, man, I remember on that, those were good guys. Or remember we went into that building. What a night we won an overtime, whatever it was. I really do believe through the whole chaos of what is hockey and a hockey season, that there are memorable moments along the way that you take with you as you sit back and you finish the game and you just really feel good about. So I hope that they have those, that I was part of that, part of creating. You mentioned culture. I talk about spirit because I think you know, the spirit changes from year to year with the team. You can have a lot of the same players, and somehow it you just hope it takes hold and grows. And that's when I think teams have their best seasons. I hope they feel like they were part of a team that had a real powerful spirit, that really had a lot of spirit, and they have good memories. I think that's it in the end. I don't believe that anybody doesn't do their best. I think everybody does their best, and you got to walk away feeling good about you know just your overall experience.

Tom Renney 16:16

That's interesting way you put that. That's really good. And I think if we can just kind of slide towards the younger player, kids just maybe starting or you know, making their way through the system. I thought when we get kids in even back, for example, in Port Albani, and even prior to that, we get kids that come from home. Hopefully, it's a solid situation, that culture is good at home, everybody's happy and genuine and challenge each other and do their chores and all those types of things. But there's a lot of kids that don't come to the next stage of their day, and that's school, from a great environment at home. Or, you know, whatever the challenges might be, both parents might be working, one parent might not be in great health, and so there's really some big challenges there that everyone has to kind of contribute to. And but from home to school, where that might be a challenge, or there's a big exam, or it's exam week, or whatever the case may be, that certainly presents the next challenge. And like what we don't know, Jim, all the time is what we're getting at the rink that day. Now, in the NHL, you've got them for in the morning and they go home and don't come back and play. But if we can just look at sort of the continuum of a young player going into, you know, maybe a successful little career, whatever. But what we get at the end of the day as a minor hockey coach in male and female hockey is what they are all about, their DNA, obviously, but what their day look like, you know, and then on top of that, they're learning styles, all of those types of things, but they're bringing their day with them. And we've got them for maybe an hour, and we have to do something extraordinary to make sure they want to come back to the rink tomorrow, you know, or you know, the the the next day, whatever. And that's a big challenge. That's a really big challenge. So hearing from people like yourself, where you spoke first and foremost about fun, you know, is really critical. But I think we also need to be aware that these kids are coming from such a mixed bag of experiences leading up to that time that you have them at the rink, and even NHL players, Jim. How do we provide the type of culture, the type of environment, regardless of what level, where they want to come back the next day? And even if it's a tough night, you know, in the rank or whatever the case, what do we do? What do you do as a leader to make sure those players want to come back the next day?

Tim Hiller 18:18

Well, I think you really do have to separate a little bit the professional player whose job it is to come back the next day, and the amateur player or the minor hockey player who, you know, you want to encourage in the sport and to enjoy the sport and to keep pushing in the sport. I think that's I guess in both cases, to me, the coach can influence that in how you set up your next day. If you come in and you've had a bad day, whether it's work or anything else, or you know, in our case, losing or not playing well, um, if you come in a certain mood with a certain attitude and expect somebody to be different than you, then that's going to be pretty tough. So I I really do believe that's one of the challenges of the job of the coach is when people don't feel great for different reasons. And it could be, again, for the reasons you articulated, or bro, that you just didn't play well. If you want to come back with enthusiasm and energy and fix what went wrong or push the team forward, then that has to be your attitude. You hope it's their attitude, but you can't hope it's their attitude and it not be yours. So I think the the coach, the leader sets the tone that way. And then hopefully through that demeanor, you get other people to just start feeding off that energy. And all of a sudden within the group, you get three or four or five or six or seven, and you can start pushing it forward again. Because we know that that's the only way to move forward. It's it's not through you know heaviness and negativity, and that only feeds upon itself. So yeah. So yeah, I mean, but in the sense of minor hockey, I I do believe, you know, and it can be a challenge if you've had a tough day at home or tough day at work, either or, and you show up at the rink, you're showing up there, and you are not just the coach, you're the leader of people, and people need to see you as an example, and that example should be a positive, energetic example.

Tom Renney 20:04

And sometimes you got to fight through that to bring it up.

Tim Hiller 20:06

Yeah, personally, personally, yeah. It's sometimes it's not hard. You feel just like maybe some of the other players or some of the young players in your team. It's not a great day. Exactly. That's the challenge for you as in that role.

Tom Renney 20:18

That's part of your job, is to get yourself absolutely uh, and I think we become the source of a lot of things, don't we, Jim? Like I think, or at least people like you do in that in coaching, but you're the source of organization and preparation. You know, you're the source of attitude, you're the source of motivation and inspiration. You're the source of, again, providing the level of discipline that's required within a particular drill or that moment in time, whatever level of discipline is required. Like all of that is really, really important, but all of it still lends itself to a culture. And when I think of the teams you've coached, and even now, the tradition of that culture is off the charts. Yeah. And I was fortunate enough to coach a couple of original six teams myself, and I just loved it, Jim. There was a spirit, there was a soul, there was an expectation there for sure, as there, as there always is. For me, the expectation was that they were, I guess, as in Detroit, you saw the dressing room there, to whom much is given, much is expected. And even in Minor Hockey, you know, they've been given a great opportunity. Their parents have made sure they're able to participate in sport, whatever it might be. And, you know, so give it your best shot. But boy, the woman or the man standing in front of that little group has to be the source of a lot of things. And man, try that on for size in the National Hockey League.

Tim Hiller 21:30

Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's it's different, and that's that's the challenge, and that's why you, you know, you got to take a lot of time and and in most cases work your way up through those challenges and and try to conquer them, or else, you know, it's pretty tough to climb the mountain if you if you get hung up on some of those rungs, which is easy to do. But I'll tell you one thing I did when I ever, you know, was the spring hockey, not the travel spring hockey, but just easy fun hockey for my kids when they would play in spring, and that was more just a three on three or whatever it might have been. Yeah, they probably so I would go. Coach, so they would probably expect, you know, there's the coach of the junior team. Oh, it's gonna be serious. What I made sure to do was, and not the first day over time, I gave everybody a nickname. Everybody on the team at some point got a nickname, and and and you know, a positive one or one with an an affiliation to something, something funny or witty or whatever it was. And what I found simply everybody loves a nickname. So there's some bad nicknames that people don't like, I would say that. But everybody loves a nickname. I think it helps you feel included. It helps you feel a little bit like the the coach knows you or you got friends. It's it's more personal. So I thought that for me really was maybe the best thing I did when I went with those guys because we we laughed and I would say it and the other kids would laugh. That's great. And I just thought that made the whole thing a little bit lighter. Yeah. To me, I don't know. That's that's just one thing that I would always do. And I would do it tomorrow if I went back and coached minor hockey just to help personalize it for everyone.

Tom Renney 22:55

Right. Yeah, for sure. Just to wrap up, Jim, a couple of comments on um again, I I do kind of hearken back to culture because it's always been so important to me, as I know it has been for you, even in this job where winning is the most important expectation from a business perspective at least. What's your feeling on mental health and well-being, Jim, as it relates to, you know, again, this culture, but also even how it relates to performance as an individual, as a team, and tackling something together. How do you view mental health and wellness and this ultimate objective of performance? And performing might be it, again, at the minor hockey level, just having a blast on the ice. We just had fun. The kids went home smiling, everybody was happy. You know, we had a cookie afterwards or whatever, or in the NHL, the cookie is you're in the lineup the next day. But you tell me what you feel a little bit about mental health and wellness as it relates to performance and how how we can uh maybe improve upon that if necessary, and uh we'll wrap with that.

Tim Hiller 23:50

Well, this has been for a long time. If you're in the right frame of mind, you give yourself the best chance to play well. So we can go back to the 60s and 70s and 80s and nine. That was always the case. And maybe it wasn't talked about as much then, but I think everybody still understood that for any person to achieve their best results at work or wherever it is, the best frame of mind and clear and positive and feeling confident, achieve the best results. I think that's been proven over time. I think really what's happened, and I'll say it, I think with social media in particular, is that's made that to get into that frame of mind, into that spot for an athlete, even for a lot of people, has made it more and more difficult over time. And so our job is to try to help the players get into the best frame of mind, confident to go out and compete. And we're competing with social media, which really doesn't serve that purpose. So I think we have to spend extra time now and extra care and just understand it's it's not that the people are different or players have changed as much as that element of the social media really, really can be a challenge, I think, for players, for everybody. And so I think we have to be aware of that and just understand that the challenge is greater today than it's ever been. And you got to talk about it. And yeah, I think you have to really be in tune with everybody in the organization, minor hockey otherwise, because it's it hits in different ways. You don't have to be one of the highest performing athletes in the world. You can be uh, you know, a 10-year-old, and you know, the stuff is everywhere. So I think really making it a priority because it has to be to get people feeling that they can go out and compete and enjoy the game like they're supposed to.

Tom Renney 25:28

Excellent, Jimmy. That's uh that's so true. I'm uh a component of you know making sure your group can maximize itself because of the climate, because of the environment, because of the care culture, those sorts of things. And uh you you framed it well. I think we're on the precipice of something very dangerous if if all we pay attention to is social media. What we've been able to do today is talk face to face through social media, which is fantastic. There's nothing like personalizing a conversation and and having one, you know, with a human being and and say what you want about social media about uh and a lot of it's fantastic. By the way, there's danger ahead if we don't take care of this properly. So your time, Jim, is so much appreciated. And and uh I know that as we play this, a lot of what we talk about um and you especially uh will resonate with moms and dads and coaches and you know those in the business world as well, Jim. It's just flat out leadership from very, very good people that have a passion and purpose. And um, you always have, and it's been a real treat, and I really can't tell you enough how much I appreciate your time, Jimmy. And I wish you all the best of luck in Toronto. And although I grew up a Montreal fan um and fought with my brother who had the Toronto Maple Leaf gloves on, I had the make the Canadian gloves on. It's a great place. Toronto's a great city, and uh this league is there's nothing like it. And I wish you all the best of luck to you and your family. And thanks again for your time, Jim.

Tim Hiller 26:43

Thank you, Tom. And listen, great to see you. Like I said, face to face. Great to see you. You look great. I'm happy, and I'm sure we'll be in touch this winter. Along the way. Take care, Jim. All the best. Okay. Thanks, Tom.